meganmulder:

Hey guys, remember how I posted a link to an online book awhile ago about inequality between the sexes? (NB: It was not my book nor in any way am I affiliated with the people who created it.) Somebody on tumblr wrote a very long and interesting post refuting some of the things in the book. Despite the fact that they refer to it as “my” book, I thought they had some interesting things to say, and thought you’d like to read their points of view, too!

The only thing I’ll add to what they’re saying is my own experience as a woman, and my thoughts about egalitarianism, because Karah had an argument with me about feminism vs egalitarianism the other day (and she isn’t for feminism). 

I think in theory, feminism is about equality. In practice, it might get a bit muddled, and so I understand that egalitarianism would arise to fill the gap between theory and practice. I’ve seen that in Christianity, too. Christians are being hypocrites? That’s alright, we’ll call ourselves Christian spiritualists… and so on.

But as a woman, I stand by the original reasons the suffragist movement and then feminism arose. It’s because we weren’t equal. We couldn’t vote. We couldn’t own property. We didn’t have ownership of our own reproductive organs. In many places in the world, this isn’t a thing of the past, either.

Even so, I’d qualify my endorsement of feminism by saying that it’s my view that men and women are equal, but not the same (let’s not get into the whole Christian aspect of this, because I’m still working that out for myself).

Oh God, and let’s not even get into the whole “fluid gender” problem, too, because I’m just not smart enough for that shit. 

But I live in the Downtown Eastside. I dress (incredibly) conservatively, and when I walk down the street, there are cat calls, there are hollers, there is blatant objectification, there are men trying to sell me porno DVDs, asking me where I live, trying to get close enough to grope me, there are men who come up and just look you up and down and they’re raping you with their eyes.

The reason I am a feminist (and one who understands that it’s not just women who are being objectified or who have image issues or who are the victims of domestic abuse) is because what happens to me and many other women on a daily basis is not okay. If you are a man and you were to walk down Hastings and you were conservatively dressed you would not be groped, not be looked at like a piece of meat, and not be jokingly solicited for sex.

That’s why I still call myself a feminist. Because what happens to me and many other women every day is not okay, and saying that “it happens to men, too” is not good enough. There’s no reason why we can’t work together to end oppression, but as a woman and with experiences as a woman, I’ve decided that I’ll best be used helping other women, and specifically, trying to get rid of problems that I myself face on a daily basis. 

I’ve got nothing against egalitarians, but there are a shit load of feminists out there, guys. Maybe if we stopped fighting each other and worked together, we might actually get stuff done. 

First of all, I was referring to you specifically because you posted the book, and because there was no criticism, I assumed you agreed with most everything it said. Secondly, you gave no indication that you were okay with egalitarians because you (jokingly, maybe, but still bigotedly) expressed wanting to jump of a bridge because some people have problems with feminism, or push those people off a bridge. Thirdly, I really didn’t cover my thoughts on why feminism is inherently sexist in depth because I was mainly refuting what was in the booklet, and just from your response, it seems you didn’t even read my one link on patriarchy.

I don’t see anyone getting the “right” to vote as a victory, but I’ll humor you. The “right” to vote was given to rich men only, at one point in time. Then it was all white men, then it was all colored men and all women. I do recognize the inequality and what seems to be the importance of the suffragettes to gain that “right” to vote, but the inequality isn’t as drastic as it’s made out to be, because it was a natural progression to having all people of different classes, races, and genders to vote as government control became less and less (though not really, because voting). Owning of property became more common for women as society advanced and it was safer for women to work, rather than having to pull the weight of survival that men did. You seem to ignore that men made sacrifices simply because of the societal norm that women didn’t work. Women didn’t work because there were less communities for them to work in, and they, as child bearers, couldn’t go out and die because the family or race wouldn’t survive. I’m not suggesting we go back to that, but we shouldn’t act like women got the shit end of the deal when they were really better off when it came to patriarchy. My point is, that while women had disadvantages in patriarchy, it wasn’t about power, misogyny, and inequality on the part of men, it was about survival. Reproductive rights were hardly an issue until women made it an issue, the suffragettes did not support reproductive rights.

I agree that men and women are equal, but not the same. We’re not going to recognize that with booklets that ignore patriarchy by only showing one side of the issue. If you’d like help on the Christian aspect of that, I’ve covered it on my personal blog after accusations of its “sexism.”

I’ve been hit on too, even though I do dress somewhat (but not incredibly) conservatively, but this doesn’t compromise my view on feminism.

The reason I’m not a feminist is because what happens to both men and women is not okay, and feminism can’t cover both sides of the issue, and it often doesn’t, as with the booklet you posted, as with the many feminist movements fighting against male recognition, or in the erasure of men’s objectification that you’re participating in on this very response by acting as if women can’t be just as sexually forward as men. Sure, it might not be as often, or it might be different in certain areas, but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen.

Saying that “it happens to men too” certainly is good enough. That doesn’t mean we can’t focus on both. It’s a recognition of patriarchy as a whole and looking at the bigger picture, rather than letting people believe that everything is a symptom of women’s oppression, rather than a symptom of patriarchy. I have no problem working together, but we can’t really work together when one of us posts things that cater only to women, not even acknowledging the male side of it. Ignoring things is just as bad as saying they don’t exist, and it’s just as hateful. As a woman, and with experiences as a woman, I recognize that the only way patriarchy and male oppression is going to be recognized is if people like me say something, because males are often ridiculed for “complaining” and not toughening up, even from feminists who claim to fight patriarchy. I don’t think you can fight women’s oppression without continually acknowledging men’s, and vice versa.

Again, you’re the on that came off as bigoted in your original post. I don’t automatically assume all feminists are going to be completely sexist or have shitty attitudes, but I do think they’re all affected by extremely biased theories and leading women in the movement and miss the bigger picture, which perpetuates sexism. For that I don’t know that we’ll ever truly be able to work together.